Are you sure?
I’ve run several cars with dead batteries just off the alternator, and bikes with very low of not dead batteries.
Is there something specific to
The c1 ?
Possibly. What readings do you get from the yellow wires? What value of resistance between each pair?
Might be the voltage regulator but start with confirming the alternator is working.
Not my favourite colour!
Your next step is to measure the raisitance of the crank sensor, wiggle the wires to see if it’s a broken wire fault, and then fix the wires or strip the bike to fit a new sensor.
Search “crank sensor” on here and you will find the info you need. The repair manual you downloaded will show the position etc.
It’s an unusual fault, I’d expect broken wiring over a broken sensor-although I have had a bike with a broken sensor (discussed on here before.)
What colour scheme is the bike?
Now you’ve posted the message, you can go back and use the attach button to add a picture.
1-fuel pump is definitely not going. So no fuel is definitely an issue
You can check the spark by turning the engine over with that loose end near the metal frame
Hold it with insulated pliers or rubber gloves
When you get a plug, get an iridium one. Ensure the connector is the same type as the spark plug lead.
How old is the fuel?
Is there a lot in there? The less there is the more
Likely it’s turned to gel.
You should try connecting 12v direct to the pump. Someone else can tell you which colours are -ve and +ve as I don’t recall!
If the pump works when connected to 12v, and there’s no spark, then my money is on hall sensor. Weird, but happened to me.
Are all the wiring connections clean to the pump?
Also, if I recall correctly, when the ignition is turned on flicking the kill switch on and off turns a red dash light on and off
If that isn’t happening maybe it’s the kill switch connections.
If all else fails, how much do you want for the bike? (Kinda sorta half joking...)
This is the kind of thing that bugs the hell
Out of me. I’d rather buy it and fix it myself than not know!
I think you may have missed the video on here, that has the engine turning over perfectly. Solenoid is no longer in question.
I can't hear the fuel pump pressurise in the clip, OP doesn't know if fuel pump is working or if there is a spark.
Which could be dead hall sensor.
Dead hall sensor would also mean no spark.
I reckon this is a 15 minute diagnosis job in person. Shame I’m 100 miles away.
Now that’s impressive. Just the building is outstanding!
Check all the fuses, or wait for someone else to give you a list of what they do-I don’t have one I’m afraid.
It’s the same
Removal of fuel pump is easy, replacement can be a pain. Check it’s working before removing it!
Fuse. Hmm. Should be referenced in the fuse box itself behind the seat.
Check cutoff switch. Red. Flick it on/off/on etc. give it a work out to clean the contacts internally.
Move the key in the ignition. Circle it round. Again, to clean the contacts internally
Check fuse for fuel pump.
Connect 12v directly to pump to Ensure it is working.
Try turning over with easy start squirted in through air temp sensor hole.
When there is NO FUEL anywhere near, remove spark plug lead from plug, attach another plug in to it. Turn engine over. Is there a spark?
If no spark and no fuel pump, most likely culprit is hall sensor.
Hall Sensor is for another time. If you haven’t disturbed the wiring it probably isn’t that.
Your relay is fine. Starter Turing like a good ‘un
Try getting in touch with V2k on here. He’s near you and has spanners!
(Nearer than me)
Easy start is next step but my concern is tbe fuel pump not energizing.
Well yes. Starter is working fine.
But I can’t hear the petrol pump energizing.
1-Is the cut out switch set to run?
2-did you reconnect the Hall sensor when refitting the wires?EDIT. ignore this. Sorry. Wrong bike!
3-can you hear the pump energizing? If you have then ignition lights on, then flick the cut off from off to run, it should energise.
4-you could remove the air temp sensor from the air box under the seat, squirt starter fluid in and see if that helps. But if hall sensor is dead, then both fuel and spark are disabled.
Where are you based? This is frustrating as I’m sure it’s a simple fix.
Try hitting it-quite hard “raps” with the handle of a screwdriver-or a small hammer-while pressing starter.
Yes it should.
I’ve pushed started cars before with dead batteries and run it from the alternator but it’s only good for a test. (As you’ve said) as it can damage the alternator and other components if used long term.
Same tests as before-start bike with old battery or jump start pack, test voltage at battery.
It should be 13-14v or so. If it is less than 12.6, there's a problem still with alternator or voltage regulator.
You may find that the alternator will now charge the battery properly-although i wouldnt bet on that!
If you fix this, it will have cost you around £48.50 in parts, and no labour charge.
Compare that to Elton John's quote... you now hava £700 in your pocket-nicely done.
It’s the longer panel behind that one. But I would not bother touching it untIL you’ve tried the new battery.
I’ve circled the approximate location of the solenoid for future reference.
And a shot of the engine with the starter motor area circled.
Just remembered this post. Is it possible to use this stator? Depending on how the wires are connected you may be able to change it to the style you need? Unsolder the common and resolder to the other style?
This Ebay one
Is around £110. Bit cheaper-from France.
Too complicated for me to think about!
This page is interesting thoughhttps://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/power/three-phase-rectification.html
I did wonder if the 7VAC you found could be on each phase, when combined with other phases and cleaned up it would become 14V DC (full wave bridge rectifier). But i doubt it.
Id get one from ebay, much as i love doing this stuff...
I have a new battery and will be going to the C1 soon.
Super! Ensure it is fully charged first, and that terminals on bike and battery are scraped clean.
Excuse my ineptitude, is the solenoid also called the 'relay' ?
Yes. Relays use small currents to control larger currents. The starter solenoid is exactly that.
If the scooter still refuses to start, just to get my facts right, if the solenoid/relay IS vibrating does that mean it is broke, or SHOULD it be vibrating ?
Solenoid should NOT vibrate. That's generally one of two things-
1-the battery is weak-powerful enough to energise the solenoid, but not to turn the engine (is usually this)
2-the solenoid is broken. (not a common fault)
Check for poor/rusty connections, both small and large terminals on the solenoid if it vibrates with the new charged battery.
And again with the starter motor, SHOULD that vibrate ?
if the old gasket is in one piece you can also buy sheets of gasket paper and cut a new one using the old one as a pattern-but much easier to get a new BMW gasket.
Am pretty sure that's right, as the C1 system takes all the voltages in to the rectifier unit at the same time.
It should be obvious from the length and position of the wires-or the pattern of the break on the outer covering.
Bit of detective work needed!
i got your message Samak-i'll dig around this weekend and get back to you
Yes-the leave it for a bit will have made no difference at all to your problem. In fact, I know if no C1 issue that this would fix.
The c1 battery is only small. It can’t take a fast charge-if you had. 20 amp charger (edit: and charged the battery at 20 amps)it would boil the c1 battery! Max charge rate is something like 4amps...happy to be corrected on that but it’s not high.
If the jump start option delivers up to 150 amps and your bike didn’t turn over, there is something else wrong.
Connections, Earth leads, solenoid or starter.
It will be simple, but may take some methodical work to find it.
This is intended to help/educate!
>I have tried the simplest and easiest suggestion first, that was to remove the battery for 1/2 hour to see if it resets anything.
I don't see anyone suggesting this-and there is no way on the C1 that this would help.
>Whilst it was out I put the battery on a car charger.
wont have been long enough to make a big difference.
>I do not own an ammeter
>I also connected the car battery charger with a jump start option, this changed the sound of the start procedure to more normal but the engine would not fire.
Not sure what you mean. The vast majority of chargers (99%)do NOT have a jump start option though.
My advice is to connect the C1 battery (with clean terminals) to the car battery (with jump leads) and then try it. If the car engine is running, that's better.
Its still not certain that your battery is dead, but it is likely. However, if your charger DOES have a jump start option and this didn't get the bike started, then there is a problem with the bike.
The jump start option should be used with a battery in place, IIRC.
If you've already bought the battery, then you may as well leave everythign alone until it arrives. Charge it up before fitting, connect it up and see how you get on-clean all the connections first.
The battery is probably lead-acid (wet). You can top
Up to the correct level with distilled water. Don’t overfill. Don’t add acid!!
If its a AGM battery, you can’t add to it.
If it’s Li Ion you can’t touch it.
If you don’t know what this means, please be careful if going near the battery in case it is wet acid as it will give you third degree burns!
The battery will not be 19 years old. It may have a “recharge” date on it to tell how old it is.
Try jumping it with a decent battery. Then run it for 30
Park up for an hour at home and see if it restarts.
New batteries are around £40. I’d recommend AGM.
Although you’ve recharged the battery, it may have died and not be holding any capacity.
Try jump startingbthe bike from a car using jumpmleads, or a portable battery pack.
If the bike starts, you have a dead battery.
C1’s like a good strong battery.
How old is yours? Tbh, new ones can die if drained as can old ones.
If you are careful, you can remove the gasket whole, and use a blade to cut it off without damage. Any small damage can be repaired with gasket sealant, but clearly a new gasket is (1) best
So, the answer is, do you feel lucky?
I think i have one used OEM spare for sale.
great-thanks for that. Will get one ordered!
That is a good price-and makes the world of difference to the look of the dash.
I'll get one ordered up myself. you don't happen to have the part number to hand do you please?
Oil drains from two Allen keyed plugs. Look like very thick washers in place on the engine. Don’t loose the sieve on one of the plugs.
Filter is hidden in a sort of “cup” held on with two 10mm bolts. Occasionally replaced with Allen bolts but not often. It is near the exhaust area.
I have a partial sticker set for a family friend now listed in parts for sale.
going on ebay shortly
getting the ring back on can be a nightmare, as the seal gets twisted. Its easy to do, but hard to put back.
cant recall pump wiring diagram-but check that the cutoff switch is "on" (we've all done it!)
just a normal bike mechanic can do this stuff.
Your last quote was ridiculous. Its, possibly, a two hour job start to finish-as youve already got that panel off-and the altertantors dont break, just the wiring, just where it goes through the engine casing.
disconnect the plug with the three yellow wires
take OHM (resistance) measurements of the wires heading in to the engine casing WITH THE ENGINE OFF
Check pairs of wires-from top, measure
You will probably find two readings are infinite, which means you can find the broken wire as it will be the numbered wire common to both infinite measurements.
if you pull, push and wiggle that wire/the bunch of three wires close to the engine casing (don't pull too hard!), you may find that they will reconnect briefly and give you a reading same as the one pair that works-and this will confirm the broken wire issue.
Fixing the wiring takes 10 minutes.
Stripping the bike down to get access takes the time! Its a good opportunity to change the oil if you havent done it for a while.
Speed sensors/abs sensors have different lengths and different coloured plugs for front and back use.
Front one is long. black plug
Rear is shorter. white plug.
Both sensors fit the holes at the wheel, BUT the plugs in to the loom are different, and a front sensor won’t fit in the rear connections in the bike. It may be possible to remove the pins in the plug and fit them to the correct plug, but I haven't tried. Then you could use a front sensor in the rear position.
I have spares for sale in C1 items for sale section:
one rear, one front
There’s no drain hole
I STRONGLY recommend not taking the pump out unless you need to change it.
I suggest removing a pipe and turning the engine on, letting the bikes pump pump it out (into a receptacle!)
I still have my first C1. A Williams autographed by Sir Stirling Moss (RIP).
I haven’t started it since 2014.
When I eventually get it out again I’ll have some work to do!
That's a good spot, and a good plan.
I think there's a bracket down there that holds the pipe in a specific position, but there's not much leeway, and the bracket is metal with a plastic connection, that often wears through and pops off.
I sometimes add a cable tie to reinforce that connection.
just scrap the engine you have and buy another to put in.
Did i mention I have an engine for sale?
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