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Previous Next Up Topic C1 Information / Repairs - Faults & Fixes / Asthma 2
- By aware Date 31.12.17 16:07 Edited 31.12.17 17:10
Before I wish for the New Year let me recap what is the situation as of now:
Bike seems to be running smoothly but engine may cut out at times when engine is cold.
Possibly carbon caking has developed and richer mixture leads ECU to cut out. If the throttle is applied the engine runs again after half a second (almost!)
I am thinking of adding some Wynn Injector Cleaner in the tank in an effort to clean valves and seats from carbon remains.
I am also planning to check how the engine progresses in the next 1000 km's.
On the one hand having the first serious issue after 80,000 kms with never ever checking valve clearances is to me miraculous.
On the other hand, maybe there is a hidden problem that will require further stripping of the engine.

By the way, at times also some coolant dripping means that a "surgery" will be necessary soon.
Also ac reading when multimeter is set to 500v shows 0.30 and when set to 200v shows 30.

Other than that, I would like to wish all a Happy New Year and Happy C1 Riding!
Parent By aware Date 02.01.18 14:56
I just ordered a compression tester to conclude whether or not I need to inspect deeper into the engine abyss...
Parent - By leonm Date 03.01.18 06:04
forgot to mention that your digital meter must be able to read "rms" on the ac scale. a cheapie is unlikely to have this capability. this may explain your anomalous ac readings.
Parent - By aware Date 03.01.18 13:23
How plug looks:

Parent - By leonm Date 03.01.18 16:07
how many miles has this plug done? the flash photo to me indicates a slightly lean running engine with no sign of oil contamination ie. very good appearance. what do other members think?
double speed flashing usually indicates a blown or incorrect wattage bulb.
Parent - By aware Date 03.01.18 20:10
Maybe 1000 kms.
After compression test, next task fix water pump and swap TDC sensor.
These initials (TDC) are hunting me...
Parent - By leonm Date 03.01.18 20:47
are you certain valve clearances were never checked in 80k miles?
if this is the first time water pump is removed, read forum on tips removing gummed-in pump body.
inspect tdc  (top dead centre) unit and generator wiring up to where they leave the rubber bungs, for brittleness of insulation and breakage of cable strands, especially at the bungs. read forum on fixing this wiring if required.
use generic tdc unit to avoid a severe punch in the wallet from bmw.
Parent - By aware Date 04.01.18 08:58 Edited 04.01.18 14:20
Indeed no valve check for 80.000 kms...
by the way today raining like mad here and engine cutting out like mad too
C'mon tool shows Battery Voltage and Idle Regulator errors

This ain't Asthma; it's a brain tumor
Parent - By V2k Date 04.01.18 17:54
Ha..  Look Al,be done with all these issues and buy something reliably decent like a Burgman..:-)
Parent - By aware Date 04.01.18 18:57
Safety of C1 is unmatched by any bike
thus I am determined to fix it
but I am almost 1 month working on it and have come to a dead end
I am exhausted mentally
Parent - By V2k Date 04.01.18 19:23
I hope you do.:-)
Parent - By aware Date 04.01.18 20:36 Edited 04.01.18 21:59
Thanks indeed.
By the way, which is the tdc sensor generic to buy in csse I need one?
Some eBay link or similar would help.

Edit: tomorrow will be tdc swapping day. Leon is correct again, I should do this asap.
Parent - By aware Date 05.01.18 08:12
Fresh new symptom:
Started bike today.
Drove for 5 meters. Stalled.
On panel AND with engine off, only oil light was on. Temp light didn't want to light.
Tried to restart. No luck, the starter motor didn't even work.
After maybe 10 seconds, the temp light turned on so the starter motor worked and I was able to start it.
Drove for another 5 meters, again same thing.
I just put it back in garage...

Something electrical?
Good morning!
Parent By aware Date 05.01.18 14:48
Parent - By leonm Date 05.01.18 15:54
fuel starvation-tank empty? when last was the fuel filter replaced?
a fuel pressure check would be useful at this stage (2.25 bar)
Parent - By aware Date 05.01.18 16:12
Bike is full of fuel. My gauge doesn't work long time now...
Fuel filter never changed...

Please also note the temp light going on and off like mad during the video above.
But... ...the following video is with bike standstill and without clutch and variator AND magically no cutting out takes place.

https://youtu.be/RBhle8B55WU
Parent - By leonm Date 06.01.18 06:25
before you go any further
1. replace fuel filter
2. remove fuel pump from tank, clean plastic filter, check piping internal to tank, completely drain tank (you may have water in tank).
3. assemble and check fuel pressure.
4. service "blue plug" as per comments on the forum. this should cure your dashboard problems including fuel meter and yellow warning light.
5. your bike sound an easy starter, so for the time forget about valves and compression. first get the other fundamentals right
Parent - By aware Date 06.01.18 06:47
The blue plug was an issue some years ago and I fixed it.
I wonder if this is fuel related given the fact that the bike doesn't cut out when in second video I am revving really high but the bike is without clutch and variator.
Do you make any meaning from this?
Parent - By V2k Date 06.01.18 10:52 Edited 06.01.18 10:55
I know that the injector wires  are mentioned many times as causing issues,but are they making proper connections?
Parent - By aware Date 06.01.18 11:14 Edited 07.01.18 16:12
I redid the injectort cables very very very carefully.
Measured voltage and it reads right voltage.
I jiggled the cables very stongly with no effect.
I am pretty sure that I did something with some cable while swiveling the engine during valve check.

EDIT:
1. Swiveled the engine again while laying on the floor in order to resemble what I did initially
2. Can't see any visible sign of wear
3. Electrical issues are always hard to spot
4. I conclude that it can be an electrical issue given the fact that the bike doesn't cut out when without clutch (whereas clutch can't be related to my symptoms)
5. I can see that the brown cables (minus lead) that go to the starter motor are stressed so maybe I have to undo the insulation around the end of the cable to see if any surprises are there.
6. I would like to able to measure the resistance of these brown cables (lots of them whew....) but this a dangerous feat
7. I also need to count how many brown cables of the starter motor set of cables goes back to the battery and how many go somewhere else and where
8. I woluld also like to buy a generic TDC sensor but googling it comes back with one hundren million results. ANY link would be more than welcome

Good morning!

Edit: I just quit.

Parent - By leonm Date 08.01.18 16:29
6. the brown cables will be a fraction of an ohm, not readable by a standard multimeter. if your starter swings motor at speed and your headlight is bright, earthing is ok.
8. take your sensor to any large bike and scooter repair shop for a match. transfer old wires and plug to new unit. before you do this, REPLACE THE FUEL FILTER.
Parent - By aware Date 08.01.18 18:04 Edited 08.01.18 20:51
Thanks!
Probably after some days. Now I need some rest from this sequence of events.
By the way, today I bought my 3rd 200 ABS wirh 21000 kms...
It's called addiction in more realistic terms.

Btw I will need to clamp off the hoses which means some special tool or other?
Parent - By alunt Date 09.01.18 18:04
Just watched the first video. It seems more of a fuel supply problem, as already mentioned. When you had the bike lying on the floor maybe some dirt in the bottom of the fuel tank got stirred up and has blocked the pick up or filter? Might be worth removing some panels and getting the top of the fuel tank off for a close inspection. You can also check if the fuel gauge sender is working properly while you’re there. Have a look at the condition of the pipe in there. Put a new fuel filter on as well, then you’ve eliminated several potential problems.
Parent - By aware Date 10.01.18 13:29
Thank you very much for watching it.
Could you please have a look at the second video too because there the bike behaves completely differently.
Parent - By alunt Date 12.01.18 13:43
Yes I watched it. I guess an engine under load requires more fuel than an engine with no load on it, even at high revs. If I’m right it could still be fuel starvation when you’re on the road.
Parent - By aware Date 12.01.18 18:43
Really grateful to you all for your replies.
The one thing that makes the "cable shorting out" a little more probable than the "fuel starvation" scenario is IMHO the fact that the bike doesn't start immediately after stalling.
I press the button of starter motor and there is no response, not even a click.
It is like the ECU hasn't reset yet. After some 5-10 seconds the temperature light turns on again and then the starter motor works again.
Parent - By leonm Date 14.01.18 09:45
the temperature light  comes on when the ecu receives a signal from the water temp. sensor while simultaneously cutting the engine. . this must be seen as a serious warning (barring sensor malfunction) and is indicative of cylinder head overheating.
after cooling down, the starter will again operate.  I suspect that you may have a head gasket failure.
Parent - By aware Date 14.01.18 17:37
My water pump seal is leaking. I understand that this is not related to my symptoms of starter motor not working until some seconds later  BUT I  just mention it if it makes any difference to your logical approach.
My main concern now is what should my next step(s) be.
Parent - By HelmetHair Date 14.01.18 17:52
Use one of your other bike's. Park this one up for spares.

Seriously. If you have two or three others why battle on and on with this one?
Parent - By aware Date 14.01.18 18:41
I wish to fix it if it is repairable without huge cost. Labor cost is not an issue since I will be working 1-2 hours, 2-3 times a week.
AT LEAST, I want to diagnose! It can be a 20 quid problem!
I will spend some time but mainly my worry is the lack of focus now:

-Should I start with trying to trace a broken cable or a cable shorting out?
-Should I remove fuel pump and filter and swap?
-Should I check head gasket?

By the way until the january 20th I have a really tight program so I can not work on it.
Regarding the issue of head gasket my questions are:
1. A compression test can be useful? (I have bought one recently but as I said I will use it after the 20th)
2. Can overheating lead ECU to cut out?
Another thing to note is that the bike cuts out without first having any temperature light on. The temperature light flickers while the bike has the engine off and sometimes the starter motor doesn't work until some seconds pass.
Also the whole issue is worsening in a exponential fashion. Every day much worser than the day before...
All these can be seen in the video https://youtu.be/6cBfrZZy00M (temp light flickering etc)
Parent - By HelmetHair Date 14.01.18 22:47
Your flickering water light is the key here. Find the cause and I'd expect you to find the source of the other problems.
I'd gues an earth cable is knackered or missing.
Parent - By aware Date 15.01.18 05:15 Edited 15.01.18 05:27
Are the brown cables that go to the screw of the starter motor the same ones that conncet to the negative terminal of the battery?
In other words, what should I start checking and with what tools/method?

Last but not least, the cmon tool shows also "BATTERY VOLTAGE" error (not as many occurs as cut-out incidents but still worth mentioning)
Parent - By HelmetHair Date 15.01.18 07:16
Sorry, but if you don't know what the brown wires are and how earthing works then I can't help You with this.
Park it up and use the other one.
Parent - By aware Date 15.01.18 08:52 Edited 15.01.18 09:38
I know what the brown cables are.
I ask if these are spread elsewhere on the bike chassis.
Electrical issues are always the hardest to fix.
The technical part of the forum is my guideline for my problems or at least this is what I think so.
Based on this forum I have fixed a series of issues with my bikes namely sprag clutch twice, starter motor, water pump, blue plug, abs sensor etc, valve fix, timing chain etc.
I don't know as many things as I should but I am a quick learner and have a background in engineering with a BSc in mechanical engineering by a reputable Greek university (National Technical University of Athens).
Parent - By aware Date 15.01.18 14:49 Edited 15.01.18 16:32
Compression rest results:
125 while cranking.
Settling at 75 psi when cold (5 bars)
Settling at 90 psi when warm (6.2 bars)

Other weird things:
Coolant temp went up to 130 degrees Celsius.
Abs lights going on and off like Christmas tree lights!
Bike cutting out easily and not cranking at all.
Moving steering wheel to the left and also applying the rear brake with extra force "reset" something AND I could crank it again.

https://youtu.be/8h-nYpRTXMo
Parent - By leonm Date 16.01.18 09:00
you should study the wiring diagrams available on the net. they will for example show you where all the brown wires run.
I suspect you do not always receive  all the answers  from me, for example when the temp warning light operates and the role of the ecu
   as a matter of interest, a compression test will not normally show up a blown gasket. also, the reading that counts is the one while the starter is turning and the throttle is open. also do the wet/dry test, tells you a lot about state of rings/valves
   systematic elimination will eventually point to the culprit. when you swop out components, preferably install faulty? component in good bike for reason stated before
   we are as anxious as you to nail this thing!
 
Parent By aware Date 16.01.18 14:28
I try my best to apply all advice given.
But I am running out of time and I unfortunately do dumb moves as well...
For example, tdc locking was overlooked by me ambitiously hoping that tie-wrapping the chain on the sprocket would do the "trick".
This is my Achilles heel granted.
Regarding the points raised:
The test was done with fully open throttle.
Didn't try the wet dry version. To do #1.
If you watch the video you may notice that the 125 psi drops after cranking.
This may be a "sealing" issue with my compression tester or a stripped spark plug housing.
I must perform a compression test with my other bike to cross check. To do#2.
About ecu cutting out based on temperature sensor sending signal leads me to conclude that maybe water pump or thermostat malfunction.
Need to test both of them. To do#3.
Only big question is why nobody at least on this forum has never experienced something similar with ecu blocking restarting the engine until temperature lowers.
By the way, yesterday the temperature while idling was 130 degrees Celsius (cmon) and the engine was knocking very bad but the ecu didn't take any action of cutting out the engine.
Also abs lights started flickering like mad too which I remember has to do with the blue plug that I have fixed ages ago.
It's almost impossible all those things to break concurrently.
But still possible...
Only route is to find time and work on todo above and report back.
Now I just decided this will be a leeeeeengthy process.
Parent By alunt Date 16.01.18 13:30
That compression looks very low to me. 10 or 11 Bar would be more normal, however it sounds like it’s cranking slowly, which can make a difference in my experience.
Parent - By leonm Date 09.01.18 20:05
you either plug pipes with a piece of 6mm wooden dowel or use vise grip pliers (do not overtighten). what I usually do is use a large piece of rag to catch petrol spill since it is a small volume (initially under pressure)
Parent - By aware Date 17.01.18 11:47 Edited 17.01.18 13:19
Very Important Finding: while moving the sterring wheel from one end to the other, I can listen the very big orange relay clicking for no apparent reason.
At least now something that may make some sense.
Any suggestions please?

When kill switch pushed forward, the relay isn't clicking.
Obviously something wrong with the cables of it.
Parent - By alunt Date 18.01.18 09:58
Sounds like progress, have a close look at the kill switch wires where they run down the steering column and plug into the wiring loom. If there are only 2 wires have a look at shorting them, then test again and see if the bike runs ok.
Parent - By aware Date 18.01.18 10:20
I removed the relay and the steering wheel now moves from end to end without affecting the operation of the engine and its electrics.
Now I will need to fit the clutch and also drive it.
Soon after this I will need to replace the water pump.
All concurrent faults:
Valves. Water pump seal. Wiring shorting out. Clutch. Variator triangle alleys.
Next!!!???
Parent - By aware Date 20.01.18 11:53
Bike today fitted with clutch and was the first time after a long time without cutting out
So these cables that run through the steering wheel were apparently shorting.
Now the bike is running without the orange relay.
I have no Idea what effect this may have.
The only thing I know is that this relay is called emergency shut off so most probably it's not a good idea to run it without it. Maybe in case of a crash it does something important.
weirdest of all is that the kill switch is still working!!
Mysteries everywhere...
Temperature didn't rise higher than 80 degrees which is good news but still I don't understand why the fan never engages. I simply can't hear it ever.
Maybe it worked some years ago.
Parent - By leonm Date 21.01.18 05:51
are you quite sure that the bike runs with the emergency cut-off relay unplugged? if so, I can only surmise that you have a wiring problem
from my experience, the c1 fan only operates on hot days in traffic, or after 20min idling. try idling test with fan blanked off with a piece of plastic.
Parent - By aware Date 21.01.18 08:53
Yes it runs like a charm without the relay.
I suspect this relay cuts off injector or fuel pump when the kill switch is activated.
I will test the fan and report.
Parent - By alunt Date 21.01.18 20:23
Check that the fan spins freely by flicking it round with your finger, with ignition off. I’ve come across seized ones.
Parent - By aware Date 31.01.18 17:27
Update:
1. I use now the bike without the relay and it works without cutting out.
2. I checked the fan and it spins freely. Sometime I would like to see if it ever works.
3. I replaced water pump because it was dripping coolant. The seals were very stiff and almost broke in 100 pieces while I was trying to remove them.
4. The oil light was flickering at idle and warm (I had before accindentally removed the sring and bearing wheel and then put them back) so I now I placed some washer just behind the screw. Will see tomorrow how it behaves.
5. I suspect that the story will not end so happily because I realise that I need to top up 10 ml the rad cap hose every 2 days and I am afraid that head gasket is maybe leaking. Otherwise where these 10 ml go???????????
Parent - By aware Date 11.02.18 13:48
My other bike with 28000 km's had a valve check today.
Inlet valves tight (less than 0.02mm). Seems that these guys never burn since they are cooled with fuel but nevertheless result to loss of compression and increase of consumption.
Compression test showed 15 bar (valves open...)
Timing chain almost one tooth off.
Time to check also tensioner.

Parent - By aware Date 13.02.18 19:45 Edited 13.02.18 20:17
Shim grinding by 0.1mm took place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv4vmFiRQcY&feature=youtu.be

The setup in the picture helped immensely; chain didn't move from sprockets at no time. I liked it a lot.
Chain tensioner depth 5.1mm.

Parent By aware Date 20.08.18 08:28 Edited 20.08.18 08:39
Well after many months and lots of swapping I came to the conclusion that this asthmatic performance was a result of a worn variator.
The rollers haven't been worn but instead the "cup" where the rollers roll (strange still given that rollers are made from softer material) was worn.
That's why I could also hear some slight knocking at idle; the rollers had been a bit loose.
Also this explains why I recovered part of the lost accelaration by using 9,4 grams rollers; the heavier original rollers were pushing a little futher (since there was more space in the cup "grooves") the primary disc and thus I was experiencing higher gear than optimal.
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